Suggestions for testing

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Suggestions for testing

Postby Pssymon » Wed 25 Jan 2017, 21:37:07

Hi,

In a few months I hope to run more tests with Marc.
He has a quarantine pond with a collector (as seen in the test videos) that we can use to test any type of Airlift while measuring flow and power consumption.
We have some ideas about what we want to test, but I figured it would be a good idea to have the members suggest their own ideas as well.

Of course we will do more efficiency tests, Airlift length and so on. I read about changing the angle of the airholes somewhere, I would like to test that as well.

If anyone has a question that could be tested, feel free to contribute here so we can put your idea into practice. :D

Greetings,
Roy
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Re: Suggestions for testing

Postby Frank » Wed 01 Feb 2017, 22:56:12

Hi Roy,

I have a suspicion that airlifts work best at summer time with high air temperature. This is what I saw serval times. Maybe the reason is the lower densitiy of warm air compared with cool air or the air pumps are a little bit more efficient at higher temperature.

Could you check if it's possible to reach your best air lift results in winter time also?

Regards,
Frank
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Re: Suggestions for testing

Postby Pssymon » Wed 01 Feb 2017, 23:16:07

Thank you for the suggestion.
I'm not sure if we can test it this winter.... The current plan is to do all tests at the same time, probably in early spring.
Maybe I can make it work. The problem is that I have to travel to Marc's place as he has the test pond and measuring devices over there.
Later this year I will be able to test here (my place) as well, but I won't have the necessary measuring equipment (yet).

I will discuss this idea with Marc. It will surely be possible to test, I just can't guarantee we will be able to try it this winter. We may have to try this another time.

if you have any other suggestions, feel free to let us know. :)
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Re: Suggestions for testing

Postby Frank » Wed 01 Feb 2017, 23:29:26

Ok, here are some more issues:

T-Pipe
Is there an output differenz between an airlift with a short pipe outlet (e.g. 10 cm) compared to an long outlet with two T pipes?

Single vs. multi airlifts (membran type)
Goal is e.g 50.000 l/h. Is it better to use one big diameter airlift (200 mm) or two smaller airlifts (160 mm)?
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Re: Suggestions for testing

Postby Pssymon » Thu 02 Feb 2017, 0:52:20

Frank wrote:Ok, here are some more issues:

T-Pipe
Is there an output differenz between an airlift with a short pipe outlet (e.g. 10 cm) compared to an long outlet with two T pipes?

As far as I know, a longer outlet will perform slightly worse, especially without T-pieces since airbubbles that are trapped will cause drag.
We can probably test this.

Single vs. multi airlifts (membran type)
Goal is e.g 50.000 l/h. Is it better to use one big diameter airlift (200 mm) or two smaller airlifts (160 mm)?

In general, multiple small Airlifts with low wattage pumps will give the same yield with lower power consumption.
Your goal is 50.000 l/h, two 110 pressure chamber Airlifts will give a combined output of 40.000 l/h at 24 Watt.
The membrane type Airlift is suited for high output from a single unit, however, when using two or more, I would always go for pressure chamber lifts.
We will do more tests ofcourse, which will give us more numbers to compare. So yes, we can test this as well.

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Re: Suggestions for testing

Postby Frank » Thu 02 Feb 2017, 1:23:15

20.000 l/h with 12 Watt you could reach without delivery head from my point of view. In a real filter configuration with 5 -10 cm delivery head the yield should be less, isn't it?

Since the Secoh SLL 20 is not produced anymore, which air pump should be used for the pressure chamber to reach 20.000 l/h with 12 Watt?

Did you do measurements with more than one airlift at the same time?

Regards,
Frank
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Re: Suggestions for testing

Postby Pssymon » Thu 02 Feb 2017, 15:04:07

That result was tested in the testing pond without any filters. With the filter before the Airlift the yield will be less, but if the filter is properly designed the decrease in output will be small.
These tests were done to find out the performance of the Airlifts without any limiting factors, ordinary water pumps are tested in the same manner. In optimal conditions without discharge head or filters attached. This way you can directly compare an Airlift with a the manufacturers specifications of a conventional pump.
50.000 litre water pumps will not truly give you a yield of 50.000 litres through your filter either. Ofcourse you can get as close as possible by designing your filter in the same manner as you would for an Airlift, by using large transits and filter media that causes the least amount of drag.

About the Secoh SLL 20, we are looking into that and for now I would say the Secoh JDK 30 is the best replacement. All previous tests were done with the SLL 20, and other bigger pumps, so it's a priority to use the JDK 30 in the next test. If possible we will try as many viable pumps as we can, but I will have to discuss this with Marc.

What configuration are you talking about when you say 'more than one Airlift at the same time'?
Both running on their own air pump? Or one air pump driving two Airlifts?
it would also depend, again, on how your filter is designed. If both Airlifts are running on their own pump and have no restrictions, performance should be the same.
if you place two Airlifts at the end of a Filter line that is designed for one, you will have too much drag from the filter and performance will suffer.
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Re: Suggestions for testing

Postby Frank » Thu 02 Feb 2017, 16:58:49

Hi Ron,

until now I am a friend of membran airlifts.

With less air I get better results. Therefore I compare two cases of membran airlifts at the same enviroment:

a) 2 x 160 mm airlift with 45 l/min air or
b) 1 x 200 mm airlift with 90 l/min (2 air pumps parallel)

Both airlifts with the same length of 175 cm

What do you think, is a) or b) better?

Regards,
Frank
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Re: Suggestions for testing

Postby Pssymon » Thu 02 Feb 2017, 18:51:38

I see what you mean.

In this example I would expect 2 x 160mm, each with their own pump producing 45 litres of air to give a higher yield than one 200mm Airlift with those two pumps combined.
I am not sure as we haven't tested this exact scenario but judging from previous results this would be my expectation.
This is definitely something we can test though, will keep it in mind.

Great suggestions so far! :)
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Re: Suggestions for testing

Postby Frank » Wed 08 Mar 2017, 21:47:48

Hi,

have you had the chance to test?

Regards,
Frank
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Re: Suggestions for testing

Postby Pssymon » Thu 09 Mar 2017, 19:26:23

Hi Frank,

Not yet, currently working on the Airlift pond topics when I have time.
It's taking a bit more time than I had hoped, as I am also working on my own project next to my job.
The topic for my own project should be up soon as well.

I will ask Marc when we can test as he needs to prepare everything. I will update here when I know more.
However, it may be difficult to test your membrane lift scenario, I think the test pond only has room for one Airlift at a time.
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Re: Suggestions for testing

Postby Twhitenosugar » Tue 12 Jun 2018, 13:41:51

Hi

Firstly, great website and videos. Having learnt about airlifts, I can't believe more people don't use them!

The main barrier to construction seems to be making a suitable collection chamber, rather than making the airlift itself. For example, I'm not sure where to get the large pipe sizes and I'm not comfortable making the collars on the inlet and outlets on the collector myself. And I'm sure that others feel the same about this.

So, one area I'd like you to test, is to see if the airlift will work without it being submerged in a collector. Instead, if you simply attach the 110mm pipe from the filters (or directly from the pond for testing purposes) onto the bottom of the air lift, whether that would work and if so what sort of flow rates would you get out of it?

I'd really like you to test this because if it works (even if the flow is not as much as with a collector), depending on the flow rates I'd like to build an airlift on my pond in that way, as I don't really have the space or materials to make the collector.

I imagine having to drop the 110mm pipe down to the same depth as the bottom of the airlift then attaching 2 elbow joints to make a u bend (so the pipe is facing up to connect onto the airlift) will reduce flow, but I wonder by how much?

Thanks
Tom
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Re: Suggestions for testing

Postby Pssymon » Wed 13 Jun 2018, 21:59:59

Hey Tom,

Thank you for your kind words. I agree, Airlifts have enormous potential. It's just a shame that it is a lot to take in when you first read up on them. And sadly they are not as easily implemented as a pond pump that you can pretty much just chuck into a pond and have it working.

I think you are spot on. We are looking into producing Airlifts and Collectors which would make things a lot easier.

We've had your question before:
viewtopic.php?f=125&t=15827

You can see my reply there. I'd still be interested to try it. I'm currently doing all I can to get my testing area ready but I am running into some problems.
Hopefully I can do tests soon!
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